ConferenceCall 2010 09 30

= Joint OOR-Ontolog-NCBO-CC-IAOA-OASIS "OpenOntologyRepository_IPR Policy and Issues" Panel Discussion (session-3) - Thu 30-Sep-2010 =


 * Topic: "OOR-IPR session 3: discussion and consensus on licensing arrangements for the OOR Initiative, and positions we might take on related IPR issues"


 * Chair: Dr. LeoObrst (Co-convener, OOR; MITRE) - [ slides ]


 * Panelists:
 * Mr. PeterYim (Co-convener, OOR; Ontolog; IAOA) - presenting the "Strawman"
 * Mr. MikeDean (Co-convener, OOR; Raytheon-BBN) - Commentary, as team lead for the OOR system development
 * Mr. BrucePerens (original author of the "Open Source Definition") - Commentary
 * Mr. JamesBryceClark - (General Counsel, OASIS) - Commentary


 * Archive:
 * Abstract
 * Agenda
 * Slides
 * the Strawman
 * [ the proposed Policy and Position(s)] ... coming!
 * audio recording of the session ( 1:51:33 ; mp3 ; 12.8MB )
 * Transcript of the online chat session during the panel discussion
 * Other Resources

Conference Call Details:

 * Date: Thursday, 30-September-2010
 * Start Time: 10:30am PDT / 1:30pm EDT / 7:30pm CEST / 6:30pm BST / 17:30 UTC
 * ref: World Clock
 * Expected Call Duration: ~2.0 hours
 * Dial-in Number:
 * from a US telephone (US): +1-218-844-8060 (domestic long distance cost will apply)
 * When calling in from a phone, use Conference ID: "4389979#"
 * from Europe, call:
 * Austria 0820-4000-1577
 * Belgium 070-35-9992
 * France 0826-100-280
 * Germany 01805-00-7642
 * Ireland 0818-270-037
 * Italy 848-390-179
 * Spain 0902-886-056
 * Switzerland 0848-560-327
 * UK 0844-581-9148
 * callers from other countries please dial into either one of the US or European numbers


 * Shared-screen support (VNC session) will be started 5 minutes before the call at: http://vnc2.cim3.net:5800/
 * view-only password: "ontolog"
 * if you plan to be logging into this shared-screen option (which the speaker may be navigating), and you are not familiar with the process, please try to call in 5 minutes before the start of the session so that we can work out the connection logistics. Help on this will generally not be available once the presentation starts.
 * people behind corporate firewalls may have difficulty accessing this. If that is the case, please download the slides above and running them locally. The speaker(s) will prompt you to advance the slides during the talk.


 * Discussions and Q & A:
 * (Unless the conference host has already muted everyone) Please mute your phone, by pressing "*2" on your phone keypad, when a presentation is in progress. To un-mute, press "*3"
 * You can type in your questions or comments through the browser based  chat session by:
 * pointing a separate browser tab (or window) to http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room and enter: Room="ontolog_20100930" and My Name="Your Own Name" (e.g. "JaneDoe")
 * or point your browser to: http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/ontolog_20100930
 * instructions: once you got access to the page, click on the "settings" button, and identify yourself (by modifying the Name field). You can indicate that you want to ask a question verbally by clicking on the "hand" button, and wait for the moderator to call on you; or, type and send your question into the chat window at the bottom of the screen.
 * (when everyone is muted) If you want to speak or have questions or remarks to make, 'please "raise your hand (virtually)" by click on the "hand button" (lower right) on the chat session page. You may speak when acknowledged by the speaker or the session moderator (again, press "*3" on your phone to unmute). Test your voice and introduce yourself first before proceeding with your remarks, please.'' (Please remember to click on the "hand button" again (to lower your hand) and press "*2" on your phone to mute yourself after you are done speaking.)
 * thanks to the soaphub.org folks, one can now use a jabber/xmpp client (e.g. gtalk) to join this chatroom. Just add the room as a buddy - (in our case here) ontolog_20100930@soaphub.org ... Handy for mobile devices!


 * Please review our Virtual Session Tips and Ground Rules - see: VirtualSpeakerSessionTips


 * RSVP to [mailto:peter.yim@cim3.com peter.yim@cim3.com] appreciated.


 * This session, like all other Ontolog events, is open to the public. Information relating to this session is shared on this wiki page: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_09_30


 * Please note that this session will be recorded, and the audio archive is expected to be made available as open content to our community membership and the public at-large under our prevailing open IPR policy.

Attendees:

 * Attended (and registered attendees):
 * LeoObrst (chair)
 * PeterYim
 * MikeDean
 * BrucePerens
 * AdamPease
 * StuartTurner
 * YuriyMilov
 * KenBaclawski
 * JamieClark
 * PavithraKenjige
 * CarlosRueda
 * Matt Liebenson (Creative Commons)
 * ElizabethFlorescu
 * AlexGarcia
 * SusanTurnbull
 * JerrySmith
 * BartGajderowicz
 * MattHettinger
 * ... if you are coming to the session, please add your name above (plus your affiliation, if you aren't already a member of the community) above; or e-mail  so that we can reserve enough resources to support everyone's participation. ...
 * ... if you are coming to the session, please add your name above (plus your affiliation, if you aren't already a member of the community) above; or e-mail  so that we can reserve enough resources to support everyone's participation. ...


 * Regrets:
 * CameronRoss
 * Donald Smith (Eclipse Foundation)
 * JohnWilbanks

Resources

 * OpenOntologyRepository - Homepage for the OOR initiative
 * This OpenOntologyRepository_IPR mini-series
 * The (subsequently) officially adopted OOR IPR Policy
 * A recent presentation on OOR - OOR Presentation at SemTech2010
 * The OOR-sandbox v2.5 (powered by the NCBO BioPortal Core v2.5) instance, now online at:  ref.
 * OOR Project site and code repository at SemWebCentral - http://oor.semwebcentral.org
 * OntologySummit2008_Communique
 * our last regular OOR-team meeting - OOR/ConferenceCall_2010_08_20
 * [ oor-forum ] message archive - http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/oor-forum/
 * (if you are not yet subscribed) you may subscribe yourself to the [ oor-forum ] listserv, by sending a blank email to  from your subscribing email address, and then follow the instructions you receive back from the mailing list system.
 * check out our other mailing lists and join us

Abstract

 * Session Topic: "OOR-IPR session 3: discussion and consensus on licensing arrangements for the OOR Initiative, and positions we might take on related IPR issues"


 * This "OOR-IPR mini-series" will, hopefully, start a dialog among the global ontology community, to specifically address IPR issues relating to the "open ontology repository (OOR)" initiative. The discussion will, invariably, touch upon IPR issues pertaining to ontology in general as well.


 * This mini-series is jointly organized by the OOR initiative, the Ontolog-community, NCBO (US National Center for Biomedical Ontology), CC (Creative Commons), IAOA (the International Association for Ontology and its Applications) and OASIS (Organization for the Advancement of Structured Information Standards).


 * Given the complexity of the issues involved, one can look as this mini-series to merely be the beginning of a quest, by the collaborating parties and their communities, to fully understand the issues, and to get themselves into a position to address them.


 * After looking at the pertinent IPR landscape, and assessing IPR issues that are related to OOR in the first two sessions, we shall, at this 3rd session of the OOR-IPR mini-series, discuss the options that are open to us, and attempt to arrive at some consensus on licensing arrangements that should be adopted for various aspects of the OOR Initiative.


 * Please refer also to the background and thoughts collected during the process of organizing this mini-series, at: OpenOntologyRepository_IPR

Agenda & Proceedings:

 * Session Format & Agenda: this is a virtual session conducted over an augmented conference call:
 * 1. Opening - chair, LeoObrst ... [ slides ]
 * 2. Presenting "the Strawman" candidate OOR IPR Policy and community position(s) on patents - PeterYim
 * 3. Discussion and some questions about "the Strawman" from the perspective of the OOR team & leadership - MikeDean
 * 4. IPR Experts' Commentary on "the Strawman" - BrucePerens, JamieClark (~10 min. each)
 * 5. Q & A, open discussion and 'tweaking' of the policy and position statements - All (30 min.) ... please refer to process above
 * 6. Getting to a group consensus - moderated by the chair
 * 7. Conclusion / Follow-up - chair

Candidate IPR Policy for the OOR Initiative:

 * That software contributions to the OOR effort has to carry a compatible, non-reciprocal, "gift," open-source license. If one is not specified by the contributor, the software license will default to the "Simplified BSD License" ([[FreeBSD] License]).
 * compatible open-source licenses include (but not limited to) the MIT License, Apache License version 2.0, Mozilla Public License 1.1 (MPL), and Eclipse Public License version 1.0 (EPL);
 * it is also acceptable if the software contribution in question is in the public domain


 * Any content contribution to OOR should specify an IPR license, as part of the OOR "gatekeeping" requirements, which will be maintained in the content contribution metadata. Each repository using the OOR software can specify its own set of acceptable IPR content licenses.


 * That content (essentially ontologies or other "knowledge organizational structures (KOS's)") contributed to the open public instance of OOR (which the OOR team will operate) will either one of the following:
 * a compatible, non-reciprocal, "gift," open-source license. If one is not specified by the contributor, the software license will default to the "Simplified BSD License" ([[FreeBSD] License]).
 * compatible open-source licenses include (but not limited to) the MIT License, Apache License version 2.0, Mozilla Public License 1.1 (MPL), and Eclipse Public License version 1.0 (EPL), OR
 * a Creative Commons Attribution only License (CC BY 3.0 or its successor).
 * it is also acceptable if the content contribution in question is in the public domain

Candidate Position Statements that we would make:
(as a joint community co-organizing this effort) which we will seek (optional) endorsements by individual members of the communities involved.


 * we believe ontologies are fundamental to enabling interoperability, and therefore support the position that ontology should not be patentable.


 * we also believe that patents covering software will discourage, rather than encourage, innovation, and therefore support the position that software should not be patentable.

Key follow-up action items:

 * 1) modify the strawman based on today's conversation, essentially in removing "compatible" gift licenses as much as we can, and adding a bullet on accepting libraries (Apache and LGPL) for software contributions; and then float that to the mailing lists for further discussion and consensus building as planned;
 * 2) starting a wikipage to develop and substantiate our position on "no ontology patents;"
 * 3) check if there is serious objection (from the co-organizing communities) in our posting the two "no patents" positions ... if there is no serious objection to do it, we'll start a wikipage to collect endorsements to those positions;
 * 4) make contact and "recruit" legal professionals who will be willing to work with us (on a pro bono basis, at least initially, possibly long haul) so we do have proper legal advice and opinion when the team needs to deal with IPR issues in the future

Transcript of the online chat during the session:
see raw transcript here.

(for better clarity, the version below is a re-organized and lightly edited chat-transcript.) Participants are welcome to make light edits to their own contributions as they see fit.

-- begin of chat session --

PeterYim:.

Welcome to the Joint OOR-Ontolog-NCBO-CC-IAOA-OASIS OpenOntologyRepository_IPR Policy and Issues Panel Discussion (session-3) - Thu 30-Sep-2010

and positions we might take on related IPR issues"
 * Topic: "OOR-IPR session 3: discussion and consensus on licensing arrangements for the OOR Initiative,


 * Chair: Dr. LeoObrst (Co-convener, OOR; MITRE)

o Mr. PeterYim (Co-convener, OOR; Ontolog; IAOA) - presenting the "Strawman" o Mr. MikeDean (Co-convener, OOR; Raytheon-BBN) - Commentary, as team lead for the OOR system development o Mr. BrucePerens (original author of the "Open Source Definition") - Commentary o Mr. JamesBryceClark - (General Counsel, OASIS) - Commentary
 * Panelists:

Please refer to details on the session page at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_09_30

.

anonymous morphed into YuriyMilov

anonymous morphed into JamieClark

[... someone accidentally put the line on hold, and a fanfare got piped through into the conference! :-) ]

JamieClark: would a condition that your theme music be played, before you speak, violate a requirement that your contribution be unconditional?

anonymous1 morphed into Matt Liebenson1

anonymous1 morphed into ElizabethFlorescu

[ PeterYim presenting "the strawman" ]

BrucePerens: We need to have a discussion of "license combinatorics".

JamieClark: amen

BrucePerens: Default to BSD is OK. Having a large combination of other licenses in the mix is _not_ OK for reasons I will explain.

BrucePerens: I say stuff like this all the time. Unfortunately I can't get either the Supreme Court or Congress to listen, nor even the Patent office.

BrucePerens: No. Well, there are some limited possibilities.

BrucePerens: Nor whether Ontology is a copyrightable nor patentable art.

AlexGarcia: should all ontologies adopt a license? I mean as soon as a repository is part of the federation should those ontologies being hosted by those repositories part of the federation adopt one licensing schema?

JamieClark: I actually think ontologies are useful as an instance of proof that the existing IP legal regime has some holes and uncertainties. So a facile statement that ontologies are, or are not, covered, seems of little value.

JamieClark: ... Simple-minded lawyer's version of "license combinatorics": Tragically, not everything works with everything else. No matter how much you wish it so. See, for example, this chart (below) at: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3-compatibility.png

AlexGarcia: not all the ontologies being hosted by swoogle have the same licensing schema

JamieClark: Bruce says (if I understand correctly): FreeBSD implicitly includes a patent license due to the patent exhausting doctrine, but doesn't hit the hot button of an explicit patent grant.

BrucePerens: Right. It's the doctrine of patent exhaustion, and the fact that the license does not explicitly say it only grants copyright rights.

BrucePerens: The problem, Jamie, is that Ontology is executed.

AlexGarcia: sourceforge.net makes it easy for people to use their repository by providing several licenses for the projects they host

BrucePerens: But not all of the stuff on SourceForge is meant to be combined. We will be combining ontologies. Open Source projects that are meant to be combining pieces arrive at a common set of compatible licenses.

AlexGarcia: the networking nature of ontologies is a problem

AlexGarcia: how do people license libraries of software. when using ontologies as modules they are similar to libraries

BrucePerens: Library licenses allow for more combination than non-library licenses. LGPL is an example. GPL terms but combine it with anything.

BrucePerens: Non-assert is not as safe as a license.

JamieClark: Bruce and I aren't disagreeing here: any contributor who thinks their stuff IS executable (or bears similar use characteristics) ought to have the ability to involve a license that (like BSD) gives them as-is-whereis-waiver protection.

BrucePerens: Jamie, is the contributor the one who needs to determine that, or the person who might have to process the ontology?

JamieClark: On "Nonassertion covenants", here is a writeup: http://www.iphandbook.org/handbook/ch07/p06/

AdamPease: Does current thinking support allowing LGPL code as part of the OOR?

JamieClark: And here is an early (2005) nonassertion instance: http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/office/ipr.php

JamieClark: @Bruce: well, if we let people who contribute have a choice, the decision's made by each of them at design-time. Then at run-time, each user decides whether the aggregated rights on offer are good enough for their planned use. (Or they let some filtering function like an IPR rule substitute for their own judgment.)

BrucePerens: That's why I'd rather grant the right by default. Why make things harder for the user?

AlexGarcia: which is run-time for ontologies? is it run-time for the software using the ontologies?

StuartTurner: Are the licenses mentioned so far those of interest or desired or are they in fact the existing licenses of all software, including libraries, in the current OOR technology stack?

BrucePerens: Usual $12,000 charge for me to explain this to the customer's lawyer, and then the lawyer charges that much too.

StuartTurner: We had Palamida perform a IP analysis on a set of proprietary code in order for us to remove IP restrictions and replace components with compatible open source libraries. These services were gifted, but we had the impression the costs were at least what Bruce mentioned.

BrucePerens: That's right. Include a GPL component in software and you have to treat the entire work as GPL until you've removed that component. Which I generally like for my software but it might not work for you.

BrucePerens: It's a question of "contribute" vs. "interoperate".

BrucePerens: Viral is pejorative.

PeterYim: sorry, Bruce! ... "reciprocal"  :-)

BrucePerens: Or "share and share alike".

BrucePerens: I have nightmares that MPAA will start getting kindergartens to teach kids not to share their toys.

JamieClark: @Bruce: Maybe the pejorative itself is fixed in time and culture. I pointed out to a child that a certain thing might have a virus recently, and her reaction was 'cooooooool'.)

JamieClark: (and she set about debugging it.)

BrucePerens: And not enough about the license applied to ontologies.

BrucePerens: We need to establish two things: 1. that we can make a tool together without license issues, and 2. that we can actually have ontologies interoperate when we're done.

JamieClark: Mike's here, let's ask him.

BrucePerens: That was my statement of approval.

MikeDean: good point about LGPL

BrucePerens: LGPL can be combined with other licenses. There are additional requirements on distribution. You must be able to replace the LGPL component in situ, so we usually distribute it as a DLL.

BrucePerens: It's possible from a legal perspective.

BrucePerens: You must distribute source with the LGPL component or respond to requests for it for a period of 3 years.

BrucePerens: BSD is in there because we know it doesn't have combinatorial problems.

BrucePerens: BSD is more used than MIT and is functionally equivalent.

BrucePerens: 3-clause BSD or 2-clause is probably immaterial.

BrucePerens: They (the OOR team) need an IPR committee.

JamieClark: I agree BSD is optimally useful. But you are already talking about going out with a set of tools that's pregnant with Mozilla and Eclipse. So of what relevance is a generalized desire for BSD terms, if getting there would require rework of all the software packages you are now assembling?

PeterYim: because "as open as possible; as free as possible" is an important part of the OOR vision, and "(2-clause) Simplified BSD" comes closest to that (than the Mozilla or Eclipse licenses)

JamieClark: (*** Aspirational statements and license terms are distinct phenomena. ***)

MikeDean: There probably should be a list of allowable library/dependency licenses as well, e.g. Apache and LGPL.

MikeDean: There also needs to be some escape clause for evaluating other licenses on a case-by-case basis and/or re-evaluating the list periodically.

JamieClark: Ick! lawyers! At run-time!

JamieClark: If your system induces each contributor to ask a lawyer, every time, isn't that a fail?

BrucePerens: They will anyway, if they work for an organization bigger than 50 people.

BrucePerens: You can accept a contribution on a defined list of licenses along with a statement from the contributor that they have the right to contribute the work.

BrucePerens: Don't say this in public before you have tenure.

StuartTurner: We are exposing to the community (healthcare/NIH) information about relevant extant ontologies. Our objective is more a registry than a repository. Despite clearly wishing for universal adoption of open source and open content licensing, we have a considerable number of ontologies (also terminologies/vocabularies) that have proprietary licensing that is not compatible with this vision. Excluding these ontologies is not consistent with our goals of informing the community, unfortunately, so we need to remain agnostic regarding the chosen license (for content). We also wish to identify a canonical and current source (IRI/URI/OID) for a given license as well.

PeterYim: @Jamie - good point about substantiating our position with "why" we don't want to see ontologies be patentable

PeterYim: maybe we should start a wikipage to build out the substantiation to our position

JamieClark: i think we could contribute substantially to that debate, yes

JamieClark: Among other things, JohnWilbanks (who's absent today) told us 3 weeks ago that his group is going to publish further on this point.

BrucePerens: Software patents are the elephant in the living room of Open Source.

BrucePerens: Tim Berners-Lee and W3C would probably join you in calling for there to be no patents on ontologies.

PeterYim: @Bruce - can you provide names of people who might provide pro bono legal help to this cause?

BrucePerens: Software Freedom Law Center (http://www.softwarefreedom.org)

MikeDean: Thanks everyone

JamieClark: Thanks all, very interesting.

PeterYim: Action items: (i) modify the strawman based on today's conversation, essentially in removing "compatible" gift licenses as much as we can, and adding a bullet on libraries (Apache and LGPL) .... and float that to the mailing lists for further discussion and consensus as planned; (ii) starting a wikipage to develop and substantiate our position on "no ontology patents;" (iii) check if there is serious objection (from the co-organizing communities) in our posting the two "no patents" positions ... if there is no serious objection to do it, we'll start a wikipage to collect endorsements to those positions; (iv) make contact and "recruit" legal professionals who will be willing to work with us (on a pro bono basis, at least initially, possibly long haul) so we do have proper legal advice and opinion when the team needs to deal with IPR issues in the future

PeterYim: Great session ... thanks everyone!

PeterYim: -- session ended: 12:33pm PDT --

-- end of chat session --

Consensus IPR Policy for the OOR Initiative:

 * Please refer also to the OOR team discussion during their regular meeting on Fri 2010.10.01

''... upon adoption as a consensus by the participants at this session, this policy will be circulated via the community mailing list(s) and will be opened to comments from the rest of the community for one week. Barring serious objection (under which circumstances, the subject will be re-opened to debate by those involved), this OOR IPR Policy (non-substantive edits included, as appropriate) will be adopted and go into effect as of 15-Oct-2010.''

... (coming!)


 * Further Question & Remarks - please post them to the [ oor-forum ] listserv
 * if you are already subscribed, post to 
 * (if you are not yet subscribed) you may subscribe yourself to the [ oor-forum ] listserv, by sending a blank email to  from your subscribing email address, and then follow the instructions you receive back from the mailing list system.
 * more general issues related to Ontology (say, IPR issues relating more to ontology in general, rather than to OOR specifically) are discussed at the [ontolog-forum] mailing list, which all members of the Ontolog community are already subscribed to. If what we do here aligns well with your professional interest, consider joining the community. Membership details can be found here.

Audio Recording of this Session

 * To download the audio recording of the session, click here
 * the playback of the audio files require the proper setup, and an MP3 compatible player on your computer.
 * Conference Date and Time:	30-Sep-2010 10:38am ~ 12:33pm PDT
 * Duration of Recording:	1 Hour 52 Minutes
 * Recording File Size:	       12.8 MB (in mp3 format)


 * suggestion: its best that you listen to the session while having the presentation opened in front of you. You'll be prompted to advance slides by the speaker.
 * Take a look, also, at the rich body of knowledge that this community has built together, over the years, by going through the archives of noteworthy past Ontolog events. (References on how to subscribe to our podcast can also be found there.)

For the record ...

How To Join (while the session is in progress)

 * 1. Dial in with a phone: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_09_30#nid2HJR
 * 2. Open chat in a new browser window: http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/ontolog_20100930
 * 3. Download presentations for each speaker here: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_09_30#nid2HJH
 * or, 3.1 access our shared-screen vnc server, if you are not behind a corporate firewall