ConferenceCall 2008 09 18

= SemanticWiki mini-series: program planning session - Thu 18-Sep-2008 =


 * Session Moderators: LiDing / SebastianSchaffert / HaroldSolbrig / PeterYim 


 * this session will be devoted to the establishment, discussion, program planning, coordination and scheduling of events and activities for the emerging SemanticWiki mini-series. We are hoping that individuals deeply interested in this topic, including candidate speakers and panelists, will be able to join us at this planning session to help forge a program that will be useful and meaningful to the community.


 * Archive: .. [ slides ] .. [ session audio recording ] .. [ chat transcript ] .. [ syntheses ]

Conference Call Details

 * Date: Thursday, Sep. 18, 2008
 * Start Time: 10:30 AM PDT / 1:30 PM EDT / 7:30pm CEST / 17:30 UTC
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 * Expected Call Duration: ~1.5 hours
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Attendees

 * Attended:
 * SebastianSchaffert
 * PeterYim
 * HaroldSolbrig
 * JackPark
 * Shangguan Zhenning (RPI)
 * JakubKotowski
 * ChristophLange
 * PeterDolog
 * DennyVrandecic (AIFB, Karlsruhe - SemanticMediaWiki)
 * RobFrost ( VectorC )
 * Ted Bashor ( VectorC )
 * MikeBennett
 * MatthiasSamwald (Semantic Web Company, Vienna; DERI Galway)
 * OthelRolle
 * DeborahMcGuinness
 * AlanRuttenberg
 * LiDing
 * FrankOlken
 * DoraiThodla (India)
 * KenBaclawski
 * YaronKoren


 * Expecting:
 * Navjyoti Singh
 * GQ Zhang (CWRU)
 * MarkGreaves (have conflict, but will try calling in, at least partially)
 * Kurt Cagle (O'Reilly Media)
 * MarkMusen (have conflict, but will try calling in, at least partially)
 * SvenVanPoucke
 * ... to register for participation, please add your name (plus your affiliation, if you aren't already a member of the community) above, or e-mail  so that we can reserve enough resources to support everyone's participation. ...
 * ... to register for participation, please add your name (plus your affiliation, if you aren't already a member of the community) above, or e-mail  so that we can reserve enough resources to support everyone's participation. ...


 * Regrets:
 * AntoinetteArsic
 * MartinHepp
 * Tobias Kuhn (IFI/UZH - Institut für Informatik der Universität Zürich - AceWiki)
 * MaxVoelkel
 * RaviSharma (joined in after meeting officially ended)
 * JieBao
 * GailHodge
 * EdDodds

Background
In a recent community planning session, it was identified that the development and application of semantic wikis has been growing at such a fast pace in the last 2~3 years. Those at the meeting agreed that it would be very useful to create an opportunity to allow those in the ontology community who are doing relevant work to come together, discuss their work, exchange ideas and explore possible collaboration.

LiDing (RPI Tetherless World Constellatiion), SebastianSchaffert (Salzburg Research, Austria), HaroldSolbrig (Mayo Clinic), MaxVoelkel (AIFB-Karlsruhe) and PeterYim (Ontolog, CIM3) have graciously agreed to co-champion a mini-series with the above focus. They put some initial thoughts together, and started to reach out to others in the community to help forge a program that could be meaningful and useful to the broader ontology community.

This is the planning meeting that we hope individuals deeply interested in the subject of semantic wikis (researchers, developers, program administrators), including, of course, candidate speakers and panelists, can all come together virtually, to explore and put together this Semantic Wiki mini-series program.

See: SemanticWiki ... the developing home page for this mini-series project

Agenda & Proceedings:
SemanticWiki mini-series: program planning


 * Session Format: this is a virtual session conducted over an augmented conference call
 * 0. Opening (5 minutes)
 * 1. we'll go around with a self-introduction of participants (15~20 minutes)
 * 2. Overview: SemanticWiki mini-series: background, objectives, and what we want to achieve at this meeting (10 min.)
 * 3. Open discussion: (all)
 * 3.1 What do we want to get out of this mini-series?
 * those in attendance are requested to make an entry, onto the chatboard with their top 3 items on their wish-list (from this mini-series)
 * 3.2 Who are the individuals and institutions doing relevant work that we want to hear/learn from?
 * those in attendance are requested to make an entry, onto the chatboard, with their: name, topic/title, url-of-their-work
 * who else should we invite - (all) to propose: name, email, topic/title, url-of-their-work
 * 3.3 Program and Deliverables - scoping and clustering, program span and number of sessions, scheduling the sessions, ...
 * 3.4 (possibly) Adopt a scope, span, and a set of objectives for this mini-series
 * 4. Support infrastructure and administrivia; announcements
 * 5. Conclusion / Follow-up (5 minutes)

Resources

 * Session Overview slides: .. PDF .. PPT
 * Some initial thoughts - see: /Prep
 * Join the community mailing list - [swikig]
 * message archive - http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/pipermail/swikig/
 * subscribe/unsubscribe/configure - http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig
 * watch out for upcoming events in this series - they will be announced on the [swikig] and [ontolog-invitation] lists

Discussions and Q & A:

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Transcript of the real time chat session:
''The transcript has been edited to improve on readability and relevance. Participants are encouraged to review, and edit their own statements to clarify their messages, where appropriate. =ppy''

PeterYim: Welcome to the SemanticWiki mini-series: program planning session - Thu 18-Sep-2008


 * Session Moderators: LiDing / SebastianSchaffert / HaroldSolbrig / PeterYim

scheduling of events and activities for the emerging SemanticWiki mini-series. We are hoping that individuals deeply interested in this topic, including candidate speakers and panelists, will be able to join us at this planning session to help forge a program that will be useful and meaningful to the community.
 * this session will be devoted to the establishment, discussion, program planning, coordination and

MatthiasSamwald: is the VNC session running already? i can't access it.

PeterYim: Matthias ... if you are behind firewalls, you'll probably have difficulities with the VNC service, just download the slides and ruin it on your desktop, please

''[ed. - In reference to SebastianSchaffert's remark, during the slide presentation, that the traditional "openness" associated with wiki's is no longer a mandate, as there are many private instances of wikis running, as people do set them up behind firewalls in institutional settings. Other remarks that immediately follow may also be in response to things being said on the presentation. =ppy]''

ChristophLange: concerning openness, I'd still say a wiki is more "open" than other systems, because usually most people who _do_ have access, are treated equally

PeterYim: I concur (regarding this point about "openness") ... thanks, Christoph

DeborahMcGuinness: i like the point that the community got going over beer

SebastianSchaffert: I am from Bavaria, so beer is of high importance (and supports creativity )

ChristophLange: http://www.beeripedia.com

SebastianSchaffert: regarding openness: what I am referring to is that in enterprise settings you often have to find a compromise; most companies are still hierarchically organised and they want some control over whom can access and modify what

SebastianSchaffert: but this is not really in conflict with wikis

SebastianSchaffert: and they can be used as a vehicle to open up classical hierarchies

SebastianSchaffert: good book by Clay Shirky on that issue, BTW

ChristophLange: good point!

DennyVrandecic: you can use forms with semantic mediawiki as well

DennyVrandecic: you could consider tabulator as the ultimative semantic wiki...

HaroldSolbrig: Tabulator?

DennyVrandecic: http://www.w3.org/2005/ajar/tab

HaroldSolbrig: thnx

DennyVrandecic: it is a rdf browser, but the newer version allows you also to edit the data

DennyVrandecic: it mushes data from several resources

DennyVrandecic: resources -> sources

DennyVrandecic: and displays them together

ChristophLange: Denny: Does it feel like editing a document, or rather like a table/form/spreadsheet?

DennyVrandecic: table / form

DennyVrandecic: i like the skyscrapter metaphor

SebastianSchaffert: the window "Knowledge Management" is missing

SebastianSchaffert: it's probably one of the most important application areas for wikis in general

SebastianSchaffert: and thus also semantic wikis

DennyVrandecic: km is not really an application... isnt every semwiki an application of km?

SebastianSchaffert: no

SebastianSchaffert: well

DennyVrandecic: ?

SebastianSchaffert: I was thinking of "Enterprise Knowledge Management"

DennyVrandecic: ah, web 2.0 brough km to the people

SebastianSchaffert: and also there are SemWikis who purely focus on RDF

SebastianSchaffert: in this line of argumentation, km was always done by people

PeterDolog: i would be interested how far your are with the meshups

PeterDolog: do you have some papers on it?

DennyVrandecic: no, sometimes it was just for suits now it is for the people

ChristophLange: Sebastian: well, but RDF is about knowledge _representation_, so in _theory_ it's not a big step to knowledge management

SebastianSchaffert: please, no philosophical discussions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Management

ChristophLange: Sebastian: Thanks! I must admit that my "mathematical knowledge management" has a wider view on the term

DennyVrandecic: hey, wikipedia is not a proper resource for the scientific discourse

SebastianSchaffert: denny: I object

DennyVrandecic: http://informationr.net/ir/8-1/paper144.html

SebastianSchaffert: I accept every student using wikipedia properly

SebastianSchaffert: I know, KM is rather inconsistent in itself, because knowledge is in peoples' head and not manageable by technology ... anyways, back to the programme ...

JackPark: Did anybody suggest earlier that this group "eat its own dogfood" by putting up a semantic wiki to use?

DennyVrandecic: i suggest semanticweb.org

JackPark: that could work

HaroldSolbrig: My understanding is that Peter plans to "semanticize" at least some of the ontolog we pages.

DeborahMcGuinness: we could also think of a birds of a feather impromptu meeting at iswc in karlsruhe

DennyVrandecic: sounds good

SebastianSchaffert: yes, would give an incentive to come to Karlsruhe after my workshop got rejected

DennyVrandecic: could be a lunch-bof, or just some time in the evening

MikeBennett: Missing windows: There is also what I would call requirements management (of meanigns for data terms) as a tool in development and systems integration. This fits in with model driven architecture but without the assumption that everything has to be transformed automatically as some of the MDA folks like to think. So basically good systems developemnt where meaning is managed at a semantics level rather than in databases and things. Managed by business not techies.

DeborahMcGuinness: surprising it got rejected... i was just scanning the workshops to see if there was one on this topic

PeterYim: ALL: please enter 3 items on your wish-list for this mini-series

DennyVrandecic: usability_vs_expressivity

DeborahMcGuinness: community building

OthelRolle: e-science

JackPark: (1) uncover more implementations (2) HCI:navigation of large, high-dimensional knowledge spaces (3) more KR issues

MatthiasSamwald: e-science (especially pharma research & biomedicine)

PeterDolog: 3 items on my wish list to hear: (1) semantic wikis and mashups (how far you are), (2) recommendation and personalization in semantic wikis, (3) knowledge representation (expresivity vs. simplicity)

SebastianSchaffert: (1) application areas of semantic wikis; (2) how can semantic wikis support users in their tasks (in contrast to other kinds of technology); (3) how can semantic wikis be integrated with other applications

MikeBennett: Wish: (1) Business subject matter experts able to enter, review and validate meaningful information without having to learn any new words; (2) what dialect of OWL supported; (3) What was mentioned about ontology curation is of interest.

HaroldSolbrig: (1) integration of semantic resources (Protege / OOR / MW / ...) ; (2) use cases and application ; (3) unresolved issues

OthelRolle: social networking

DennyVrandecic: (1) usability_vs_expressivity, (2) content_quality, (3) integrating_external_data

SebastianSchaffert: regarding these questions, I'd also like to point you to one of the first KiWi deliverables (KiWi Vision) http://wiki.kiwi-project.eu/?title=kiwi-pub:KiWi_D8.5_final.pdf

SebastianSchaffert: I think we have already collected many ideas and insights there

ChristophLange: 1. connect knowledge engineering and social interaction, 2. utilizing complex document formats in wikis, 3. closed world vs. open world

DeborahMcGuinness: 1. semantic wikis for escience - particular earth and space science 2. semantic wikis as a social collaborative environment for semantically-enabled applications

PeterYim: (1) explore opportunities for collaboration; (2) do a semantic wiki & OOR session (3) showcase the state-of-the-art

MatthiasSamwald: usability_vs_expressivity

KenBaclawski: (1) experiences with distributed collaboration (2) application to education (3) integration with other tools (e.g., blogs)

Ted Bashor: Wish: (1) develop set of use cases (2) ontology management/integration challenges (3) linking wiki content to other apps

RobFrost: (1) server-side infrastructure to support semantic wikis (2) survey of semantic wikis for vertical domains (e.g. HCLS) (3) semantic wikis for "non-experts"

PeterYim: enter offers to be panelists please:

DennyVrandecic: denny, semantic mediawiki (core system), http://semantic-mediawiki.org

SebastianSchaffert: sebastian, KiWi project and/or IkeWiki, http://wiki.kiwi-project.eu official webpage at http://www.kiwi-project.eu currently redesigned but should be ready next week

HaroldSolbrig: Harold Solbrig - "BiomedGT - SMW based ontology federation and curation" http://biomedgt.nci.nih.gov

ChristophLange: Christoph, SWiM (currently used at http://wiki.openmath.org, general info at http://kwarc.info/projects/swim/ ), SWiM at OpenMath is a kind-of lightweight math. ontology engineering use case; will also be concerned w/ argumentative structures in discussions

HaroldSolbrig: Harold Solbrig (Guoquain Jiang) - "ICD-10 Collaborative Revision Platform for the WHO" http://informatics.mayo.edu/whodev/index.php/Main_Page (password protected, but will be removed shortly)

DeborahMcGuinness: our main group page includes links to many of the wiki-based applications as well as links to our foundational work - http://tw.rpi.edu/wiki/Main_Page

DoraiThodla: Dorai Thodla: SemanticWiki Applications - Teaching, Learning, Knowledge Sharing

PeterYim: * input from MarkMusen: I think the emphasis on "semantic wiki's" forces the discussion into a small corner. The real matter at hand is the use of Web 2.0 techniques in support of ontology engineering. Semantic wiki's are a subset of Web 2.0 approaches. ... At Stanford, we believe that wiki's are much too limiting for scalable ontology development, particularly when using OWL. Web Protege casts many of the features of desktop Protege in a Web 2.0 framework, and that is where we are focussing our attention.

ChristophLange: I disagree! A semantic wiki is a whole semantic web in a sandbox

SebastianSchaffert: yes

SebastianSchaffert: but the restriction to ontology engineering is even more narrow

DennyVrandecic: +1 to ChristophLange

DeborahMcGuinness: +1 to Mark Musen's point

SebastianSchaffert: christoph: that was one of our arguments from the beginning

SebastianSchaffert: there are two different sides to semantic wikis: semantics for wikis and wikis for semantics

DennyVrandecic: it depends what MarkMusen means with Ontology Engineering

HaroldSolbrig: The challenge is limiting the scope - Semantic Wiki -> Semantic WIki Philosophy -> Web 2.0++. The whole area is interesting, but we have to limit the scope

SebastianSchaffert: still, it indicates the goal to create an ontology

SebastianSchaffert: but Semantic Wikis might serve other goals

HaroldSolbrig: I think a second goal is to annotate wiki content with an ontology

SebastianSchaffert: and most non-Semantic-Web-users really don't care about semantics, but they care about better software

PeterYim: ALL: please propose other panelists below:

PeterYim: * input from MarkGreaves: This is an area that I am extremely interested in -- as you know, Vulcan is one of the major funders of Semantic Wiki technology worldwide, and we have some very nice software. ... At any rate, please keep me in mind as one of the presenters, and we can follow up by email.

HaroldSolbrig: We've used Halo in combination w/ Semantic Forms, but at one point, they thought they were philosophically opposed. I think this has since been resolved.

DennyVrandecic: YaronKoren, Semantic Forms and other extensions, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms

HaroldSolbrig: I'd like to see Yaron present on where they are going with Semantic Forms. Yaron?

DennyVrandecic: (since he didn't suggest himself )

LiDing: yaron is online

SebastianSchaffert: Josef Holy, Sun Microsystems, application of Semantic Wikis in software knowledge management

YaronKoren: Hi, guys. I don't know if I can make it to this conference...

DennyVrandecic: it's a virtual conference

YaronKoren: Oh...

DennyVrandecic: not a real meeting

YaronKoren: I missed that part.

HaroldSolbrig: I'd like to get a good feeling for what Vulcan is doing and the problems they are trying to solve.

YaronKoren: Let me also suggest Markus Krotzsch, then, of Semantic MediaWiki fame.

HaroldSolbrig: Absolutely on Markus.

ChristophLange: How about MaxVoelkel and his topic sem. wikis for _personal_ knowledge mgmt?

SebastianSchaffert: blogs are essentially like wikis, just sorted by time that's why I am using the term "wiki philosophy"

ChristophLange: ... this chat doesn't seem to support UTF-8 ...

PeterDolog: integration with other tools is a must in the enterprise context as we also realized in the KIWI project

DennyVrandecic: i'd like to hear also from users

SebastianSchaffert: denny: that's why I suggest Josef Holy

PeterYim: if anyone has others to propose, please send the input to anyone of the co-champions or post below within the next 7-days

PeterDolog: therefore, the mashups seems to be an interesting technology

LiDing: as for blog, Jie bao has implemented a simple blog at http://tw.rpi.edu/wiki/Blog:Baojie

ChristophLange: Sebastian: but i think blogs are used differently, from one blogger to a wide audience that may only comment (or run their own blog and link, trackback, etc.)

SebastianSchaffert: christoph: same technology, same philosophy, but different use

ChristophLange: sebastian: but because of the different use i'd call the philosophy different too -- but, well, no philosophical discussions

LiDing: privacy and access control in semantic wiki is the key to make things like blog flying in Semantic wiki

DennyVrandecic: what about someone from wikia? they are giving semantic wikis to about 800,000 potential users...

SebastianSchaffert: ah, and also dbpedia

DennyVrandecic: oh wow, that is a topic -- access control in semantic wikis. that is a huge problem for us

DoraiThodla: Is there a list of Semantic wiki or something similar to WikiMatrix for SemWikis?

ChristophLange: +1 Denny

YaronKoren: There are various lists of SMW-using wikis...

ChristophLange: Dorai: there was once some kind of metadata ontology on semanticweb.org, but it's not been used for a long time

DeborahMcGuinness: +many for access control

DennyVrandecic: http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Category:Semantic_wiki_engine

DoraiThodla: Thanks

DennyVrandecic: it is community-maintained though...

SebastianSchaffert: more than 5 seconds of preparation for a closing note would be a good thing

DennyVrandecic: sebastian: you're too demanding, it's a wikiwiki world

LiDing: that means we should write it together

SebastianSchaffert: so please accept my apologies for having a wiki-style closing note

DennyVrandecic: how can i edit it?

SebastianSchaffert: thanks for hosting!

DennyVrandecic: thanks!

LiDing: thanks

DoraiThodla: Thanks Peter and bye every one.

YaronKoren: Does that mean this chat has to end?

PeterDolog: thanks to all for interesting session

ChristophLange: thanks, bye!

PeterDolog: bye

DennyVrandecic: great moderation, we finished on time

PeterYim: Thanks everyone!

MikeBennett: Thanks, bye everyone.

KenBaclawski: Thanks, bye all!

SebastianSchaffert: was very nice to see that the community gets bigger and I hope to gain many insights here

SebastianSchaffert: thanks again to all, bye

YaronKoren: By the way, when is this virtual conference?

DennyVrandecic: undecided yet

YaronKoren: Ah.

DennyVrandecic: it will probably be a mini-series

YaronKoren: I see.

DennyVrandecic: with a number of sessions, each with a small number of speakers

MikeBennett: Similar to the series we are doing on emerging ontology showcases.

SebastianSchaffert: nice concept - one needs to get accustomed to it but it works quite well

SebastianSchaffert: meaning that this has actually been one of the more productive telcos in my life

MikeBennett: Probably easier if you have three screens though.

SebastianSchaffert: right

DennyVrandecic: it fits well in one if you use an IM to connect to the chat instead of the browser

SebastianSchaffert: but apple expos does the trick

YaronKoren: Sorry, will all of these mini-conferences be about ontology engineering?

DennyVrandecic: i dont hope so

DennyVrandecic: the topics will be gathered now based on the topics we listed before

YaronKoren: Oh, I see.

SebastianSchaffert: BTW: There was a question by harold on versioning of metadata - if you are also doing reasoning this is very much related to the topic of reason maintenance

SebastianSchaffert: currently not much addressed on the Semantic Web, but some work in the logic programming area

SebastianSchaffert: Jakub is investigating this

YaronKoren: There's some reasoning in SMW already, though there could be more.

YaronKoren: Type-checking, for instance.

JakubKotowski: actually, people already begun aplying reason maintenance and belief revision techniques for triple store update operations

SebastianSchaffert: yes, but the problem is when doing versioning of metadata it could mean significant performance problems

SebastianSchaffert: there is quite some reasoning in IkeWiki from the very beginning

SebastianSchaffert: @Jakub: didn't know that, I probably should read your deliverable ...

JakubKotowski: @Sebastian: take a look at the "Relation to RDF and OWL" part

SebastianSchaffert: I will as soon as I find a bit more time

PeterYim: Folks ... Telephone playback is now available. Audio archives (mp3) will probably be ready tomorrow. see: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2008_09_18#nid1LZ6

SebastianSchaffert: bye, have a nice day/night/...

JakubKotowski: bye

YaronKoren: BTW, the Ontoprise people are working on access control for SMW (SemanticMediaWiki) - if everyone is interested in that, it would be worth talking to them about it.

YaronKoren: Or having them talk about it.

PeterYim: ... I'll sign off now. ... thanks again, everyone. Great session!

Additional proposed panelists/topic: ... (posted after the 2008.09.18 session)

PeterYim/2008.09.24: PeterYim, KenBaclawski et al., Purple MediaWiki Extention (PMWX), http://project.cim3.net/wiki/PMWX

PeterYim/2008.09.24: PeterYim et al., Migrating the OntologWiki content to Purple Semantic Media Wiki, http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki (prefer to do this towards the end of the mini-series)

PeterYim: AdamCheyer also suggested earlier (2008.09.17): Thomas Tunsch - "National Museums in Berlin: The Semantic Web and Wikis" (ref. his previous talk) - anyone familiar with him or his work?

Follow-up and Adjourn:

 * For those who cannot join us, or who have further questions or remarks on the topic, please post them to the "swikig" listserv so that everyone in the community can benefit from the discourse.


 * watch out for announcement of the upcoming events for this mini-series. They will be made on both the [swikig] list and the [ontolog-invitation] list


 * the first (kick-off) event will likely be some time in mid-October (2008); and will probably be on a survey of the Semantic Wiki landscape.


 * this planning session was adjourned 11:57 am PDT

-- proceedings captured on this wiki by PeterYim / 2008.09.18-11:57am PDT Attendees are requested to review the notes above, help clean it up, and make amendments and edits to better reflect the proceedings of the session as they see fit (particularly where they are personally involved). =ppy

Audio Recording of this Session

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 * Conference Date and Time:	18-Sep-2008 10:38am~11:57am PDT
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 * UK: +0870 738 0768
 * US: +1 605 475 8599
 * Skype: +990008271111 (free computer-to-computer call)
 * non-Skype callers from other countries can dial into either the US or UK number for the playback (long distance costs apply)
 * Conference ID: 5823120#
 * Recording Reference Number:	183385#