ConferenceCall 2010 02 11

= OntologySummit2010: Panel Session-4 - "Education & Training Quality for Ontologists" - Thu 11-Feb-2010 =

OntologySummit2010 Theme: "Creating the Ontologists of the Future"

 * Panel Session-3 Topic: "Template for Ontology Training Programs"


 * Co-chair: Professor BarrySmith (University at Buffalo) & Dr. FabianNeuhaus (NIST)


 * Panelists:
 * Dr. NicolaGuarino (Laboratory for Applied Ontology (ISTC-CNR), Italy)
 * Professor DagobertSoergel (University at Buffalo)
 * Dr. BillAndersen (Ontology Works)
 * Professor MichaelGruninger (University of Toronto)


 * Archive:
 * Abstract
 * Agenda & Proceedings
 * Our panel's prepared presentation material can be accessed by clicking on each of the title links below:
 * [ 1-Smith ] . [ 2-Neuhaus ] . [ 3-strawman ]
 * see: OntologySummit2010_FutureQuality_Synthesis
 * [ Audio Recording of the session ]
 * [ Transcript of the online chat session ] during the panel discussion
 * Other Resources

Conference Call Details

 * Date: Thursday, 11-February-2010 
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 * To participate in OntologySummit2010 virtual discourse, please refer to details here.

Attendees:

 * Attended:
 * BarrySmith
 * FabianNeuhaus
 * DagobertSoergel
 * BillAndersen
 * NicolaGuarino
 * MichaelGruninger
 * SteveRay
 * PeterYim
 * LeoObrst
 * JeffreySchiffel
 * ArturoSanchez
 * WilliamHogan
 * DeniseBedford
 * PatCassidy
 * ElizabethFlorescu
 * CharlesWhite
 * FrankOlken
 * JoelBender
 * RaviSharma
 * AmandaVizedom
 * NancyWiegand
 * RexBrooks
 * JulitaBermejoAlonso
 * GaryBergCross
 * MariaKeet
 * PavithraKenjige


 * Expecting:
 * CsongorNyulas
 * JoelNatividad
 * ... if you are coming to the session, please add your name above (plus your affiliation, if you aren't already a member of the community) above; or e-mail  so that we can reserve enough resources to support everyone's participation. ...
 * ... if you are coming to the session, please add your name above (plus your affiliation, if you aren't already a member of the community) above; or e-mail  so that we can reserve enough resources to support everyone's participation. ...


 * Regrets:
 * BartGajderowicz (time conflict)
 * ToddSchneider
 * AntonyGalton

Resources

 * OntologySummit2010: Quality Track: input & syntheses
 * OntologySummit2010_PresentQuality_CommunityInput (open)
 * OntologySummit2010_PresentQuality_Synthesis (maintained by ArturoSanchez and AntonyGalton)
 * OntologySummit2010_FutureQuality_CommunityInput (open)
 * OntologySummit2010_FutureQuality_Synthesis (maintained by BarrySmith, NicolaGuarino and FabianNeuhaus)
 * OntologySummit2010_Survey


 * Homepage of OntologySummit2010
 * OntologySummit2010 - Event Calendar
 * OntologySummit2010 Panel Session-3 "Training Requirements for Ontologists" - ConferenceCall_2010_02_04
 * OntologySummit2010 Panel Session-2 "Training Content for Future Ontologists" - ConferenceCall_2010_01_14
 * OntologySummit2010 Panel Session-1 "Surveying the Landscape & Possibilities" - ConferenceCall_2009_12_17
 * OntologySummit2010 Launch Event - ConferenceCall_2009_12_10
 * Communitywide brainstorming and planning session Ontology Summit 2010 - ConferenceCall_2009_11_05
 * OntologySummit2010: Key Content Pages
 * OntologySummit2010_PertinentQuestions
 * OntologySummit2010_Survey
 * [ontology-summit] discussion list archives - http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/
 * to subscribe to this discussion list: send a blank message from your subscribing email address to  or visit http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontology-summit/ and subscribe yourself there
 * Homepage of OntologySummit2009 - http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2009
 * OntologySummit2009_Communique
 * Homepage of OntologySummit2008 - http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2008
 * OntologySummit2008_Communique
 * Homepage of OntologySummit2007 - http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2007
 * OntologySummit2007_Communique
 * Homepage of UpperOntologySummit (2006) - http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?UpperOntologySummit
 * UpperOntologySummit/UosJointCommunique

Theme: OntologySummit2010 - Creating the Ontologists of the Future
This is our 5th Ontology Summit, a joint initiative by NIST, Ontolog, NCOR, NCBO and IAOA with the support of our co-sponsors. The theme adopted for this Ontology Summit is: "Creating the Ontologists of the Future" and was launched on 10-Dec-2009. Like previous years, this Ontology Summit will comprise of three months of virtual discourse, over our archived mailing lists, wiki, and virtual panel sessions (like this one), and will culminate in a 2-day face-to-face workshop/symposium to be held on Mon & Tue, 15 & 16-March-2010 at NIST (Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA.)


 * Session Topic: Template for Ontology Training Programs


 * . Abstract: ... by BarrySmith & FabianNeuhaus


 * Increasingly, major national and international projects centered on ontology technology are being advanced by governments and by scientific and industrial organizations. This brings a growing need for ontology expertise and thus for new methods and institutions for the training of ontologists. The 2010 Ontology Summit will explore strategies to address this need in terms of curriculum, establishment of new career tracks, role of ontology support organizations and funding agencies, as well as training in the analysis and comparison of methodologies for designing, maintaining, implementing, testing and applying ontologies and associated tools and resources.


 * We will present sample specifications of the skills and content which should be included in ontologist training programs. Features addressed will include: a common core of theoretical content and practical expertise, electives, the role of interdisciplinarity, and human-directed and software-directed elements.

Agenda & Proceedings:
OntologySummit2010 - virtual panel-4 - Topic: "Template for Ontology Training Programs"


 * Session Format: this is a virtual session conducted over an augmented conference call
 * 1. Opening - co-chair:   [ [ slides] ]
 * 2. Template for Ontology Training Programs - a strawman proposal  [ [ slides] ]
 * 3. Panelist Remarks - DagobertSoergel, BillAndersen, NicolaGuarino & MichaelGruninger (5 min. each)
 * 4. Q & A and open discussion (All) -- please refer to process above
 * 5. Conclusion / Follow-up - co-chair

Transcript of the online chat during the session:
see raw transcript here.

(for better clarity, the version below is a re-organized and lightly edited chat-transcript.) Participants are welcome to make light edits to their own contributions as they see fit.

PeterYim:.

Welcome to the OntologySummit2010: Panel Session-4 - "Education & Training Quality for Ontologists" - Thu 11-Feb-2010 OntologySummit2010 Theme: "Creating the Ontologists of the Future"


 * Panel Session-3 Topic: "Template for Ontology Training Programs"


 * Co-chair: Professor BarrySmith (University at Buffalo) & Dr. FabianNeuhaus (NIST)

o Professor DagobertSoergel (University at Buffalo) o Dr. BillAndersen (Ontology Works) o Dr. NicolaGuarino (Laboratory for Applied Ontology (ISTC-CNR), Italy) o Professor MichaelGruninger (University of Toronto)
 * Panelists:

Please refer to details on the session page at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_02_11

.

anonymous morphed into MariaKeet

FrankOlken: I have joined the teleconference.

anonymous morphed into ElizabethFlorescu

Joel Bender morphed into JoelBender

RexBrooks: I have joined the chat, too.

anonymous1 morphed into JulitaBermejoAlonso

RaviSharma: Barry: Would you agree that the abilities of ontologies to show relationships among data and also the ability to process data to useful information is the reason for increasing demand for ontologists recently?

PavithraKenjige: We learn how to create Ontology in Software Systems Engineering curriculum (optional)... So Computer Science people can do that as well..

PeterYim: ... would the "anonymous" person please change your identity to your real name by clicking on the "Settings" button (at the top center), please

RaviSharma: Barry: The three NOT categories could be closely aligned by-product specialists related to ontologists or do you believe that there is zero overlap among them and ontologists?

anonymous1 morphed into JeffreySchiffel

RaviSharma: Fabian: I believe you are clubbing the requirements for ontology in the use case and example module?

PeterYim: Nicola: stressed "Ontological Analysis"

FrankOlken: What prerequisites are we assuming? a basic course in logic?

RexBrooks: @Nicola: What I think I'm hearing from Nicola is analysis of ontologies as opposed to the use of ontological principles for analysis of some domain or collection of documents. Is this correct?

FrankOlken: Also, I think that in addition to logic, we should include graph theoretic approaches to ontology specification, characterization and integration.

FrankOlken: I am skeptical about a 3 unit course on management and team work - I think this should be rolled into the project class.

PavithraKenjige: I agree that, just understanding the principle would not give the expertise, it is the practice that makes a person an expert! But in training, one can have enough examples to create actual ontology would help!

FrankOlken: Perhaps ontological analysis is intended to be the equivalent of literary criticism. We need a literature of ontologies,

FrankOlken: and a literature of ontological criticism.

FrankOlken: I agree with BillAndersen on the importance of integrating with existing curricula. New course approvals are very difficult.

RaviSharma: Bill: What are the minimum tools and especially open source tools that would help develop the ontology applications and challenge the ontologist in the making?

FrankOlken: I also agree with Bill Andersen on the importance of being able to work from existing DB schemas.

AmandaVizedom: I would think that ontological analysis would include the conceptual, formal, and functional aspects of an ontology. I don't know that this is what Nicola intends, but assertion of a fundamentally interdisciplinary nature suggests this to me. What I mean, roughly: formal = logical, set-theoretic, and similar characteristics of the ontology and its content, and the implications thereof; conceptual = what is being captured? how does the ontology correspond to something someone, or some expressions, might mean; functional = for what (kinds of) uses and applications could this ontology be used?

JulitaBermejoAlonso: How do you merge the ontological knowledge and skills (ontologist role) with domain knowledge (expert role)? They are not usually the same person. Sometimes, to speak ontology-like is not understood by experts. How is future training to address this?

PavithraKenjige: Oh! Object Oriented concepts are quite powerful from a programming perspective.. if they have problem with understanding.. it is a gap one to pay attention to.. in the industry

AmandaVizedom: @Nicola: how does the characterization above fit with ontological analysis as you conceive of it?

PavithraKenjige: I mean one has to pay attention..

RaviSharma: Julia: That was also closely related to my question to Barry.

GaryBergcross: Dagobert's comment on planning for how long an ontology will be maintained points to some need to have Ontology Management and planning covered in one of the courses.

anonymous1 morphed into BillAndersen

anonymous3 morphed into DagobertSoergel.

RaviSharma: Amanda: Ref. your comments to Nicola - I was also thinking of analysis of quality, completeness and extent to which the original intent of ontology specification was actually met?

BillAndersen: My notes will follow for introduction into the record.

BillAndersen: [BA] = Bill Andersen [RK] = Ryan Kohl [JW] = Jennifer Williams [OW] = Ontology Works

[BA] Introductory comments

OW can best help this effort by transmitting our experience on over 50 ontology projects - more precisely software development projects that involve the use of ontology Although my heart lies with the "ontological analysis" emphasis, in connection with philosophical ontology and logic, this stuff in practice follows the Pat Winston "raisin bread" law. Philosophical material are the "raisins". You need the raisins, but they're only 5% of the total mass of the bread.

The real question that needs to be answered is where "ontologists" fit in to larger software development efforts.

but broader in scope
 * Closer to Info Sci than CS, Phil, Linguistics * Role in development is analogous to data modeler

1) [RK] Emphasis on training in standard Knowledge Representation

It's a bad move to make KR an elective, but have NLP front and center as a 'core knowledge' piece. The KR component should help students understand what is hard and what is easy in their field, as well as allow them to clearly understand the connections to other CompSci and Math fields.

2) [RK] Competence in at least one modern programming/scripting language.

The ability to write quick one-off scripts helps the ontologist in two ways. The most obvious benefit is a decreased reliance on a trained programmer for small tasks, such as ripping through a text file or parsing an XML file. More importantly, though, is the increased understanding of things IT that is gained from such an ability - whether the ontologist is writing models for databases or for workflow organization, the model is going to have to connect to some kind of program. Understanding those connections is a big plus for any fresh-out ontologist.

3) [RK, BA] A 3-credit course on life cycle management and team work doesn't make any sense

Better to adapt existing software engineering curricula - like UMCPs CMSC435 software engineering course. The idea is to teach ontologists that they will be part of a software team so they need to understand how all that works on a real project

Such a course would do the work of:

3 credits: Use cases and examples (know: 5, 6, 7, (292C) 3 credits: Life cycle management and team work (know: 4.1, skills: 2, 13) (292D) 3 credits: Project course building ontologies (know: 4; all skills)

[JW] "In my experience, teamwork THEORY has not been very helpful, and teamwork in practice has fabulous complexity and is best experienced rather than discussed."

4) [BA] Data analysis and manipulation course

[JW] Most projects (in OW's experience) are NOT clean slate in the sense that there are no existing models (even if the only model is implicit to an existing database structure). In addition, most have existing data (usually not or under-documented) which must be dealt with.

Scripting, XML, SQL

5) [BA] To reinforce Dagobert's point - Develop criteria for integration of existing course offerings in CS, IS, LS to support curriculum. If not done then there will be risk that ontology-specific courses could not be supported long term. The upside is that the view of ontology as inter-departmental is reinforced.

6) [JW] The whole point of using ontologies is to promote model-driven application development. But there is a BIG gulf between app developers and ontologists. Ontology may indeed help in integration and such but there needs to be shared understanding between ontologists and app developers such that the latter can "code to" the ontologies.

7) [JW] No need for separate "philosophy of language" course. [BA - Language is important as Nicola points out, but] this can be incorporated into the philosophical ontology or just rolled up into a general philosophical support class.

[JW] Core skills -- The inclusion of funding in the life cycle skill set is not something I have seen elsewhere, and seems to call for a set of skills applicable to marketing. I am not sure it belongs in a standard view of lifecycle management.

9) [BA] The idea of "use cases" sounds good but in practice will be difficult to achieve. Example are intelligence applications OW has done where the "use cases" are wildly complicated and would choke someone who does not already have significant experience. Best to provide some application templates as part of an ontology-oriented SWE course. It certainly doesn't make sense to make it a separate course.

PeterYim: Thanks, Bill

BillAndersen: :-D

RaviSharma: excellent inputs Bill.

BillAndersen: Tks

AmandaVizedom: Working off of the comments about permanency, funding, and long-term maintenance: In many applied and/or integrated ontology settings, the idea of a permanent or unchanging ontology is considered at least practically infeasible, at worst based on one or more fundamental misunderstanding. However, that is not to say that disposable or one-off work is desired. The missing middle, in the general body of knowledge, is how to create re-usable and maintainable ontologies *and* architectures (including structures of integreated, modular ontologies) that allow integration, extension, and adaptation with maximal fluidity and minimal rework.

DagobertSoergel: Importance of ontological analysis, crystallizing the structure of a domain, developing a global view of the entities and relationships in a domain or in the body of knowledge needed to deal with a problem.

DagobertSoergel: How to write axioms

BillAndersen: +1 on Michael's point on teaching ATP

RaviSharma: All: I think tools training is not sufficiently emphasized? any comments for tool training even if these are short or vendor sponsored courses?

AmandaVizedom: If you put your hand up by mistake, you can remove it by clicking on your hand in the Queue box.

DagobertSoergel: Relationships to related areas, such as building taxonomies and thesauri that are less formal but use similar techniques, use similar resources, and rrequire similar knowledge

RexBrooks: @Ravi: Tools are critical. Understanding them are not necessarily easy, especially if the logic or relationships is built into the tool. This is important for choosing the tools we use.

DagobertSoergel: Importance of courses where students build ontologies. Apprentice learning

RaviSharma: Rex: For example these days - How do we employ people who do not have Office, Databases and HTML (Web) basic understanding, the tools training is similar as it prepares you to a methodology for ontology development or application of ontology to solve real problems whether these are search related or for mining or knowledge from information?

AmandaVizedom: This thread (tools, modeling languages) reminds me: I have encountered several cases where substantial work is being done, including both project plans and individual ontologist-expert exchanges, with absolutely no awareness of the substantial research that has been done to try to enable better (more accurate, faster) elicitation and/or direct contribution to ontologies by domain experts themselves. I'd advocate that a look at the history and current state of such research should accompany learning about the tools themselves!

FrankOlken: Again, I think there should some discussion of graph theoretic approaches to ontology specification, integration. See the work of Cliff Joslyn on graph theoretic approaches to ontology (taxonomy or partonomy) integration.

PeterYim: @Frank - can you provide a link to that work you are recommending, please?

RexBrooks: @Ravi: Exactly. I think one aspect that is coming up short in these discussions so far is problem solving. Ontological Analysis of problems is a purpose and use I think needs to have at least some focus, maybe a course or two. Apart from ontological analysis for analyzing ontologies.

AmandaVizedom: Apologies; my previous is perhaps more of content point than a quality one.

BillAndersen: Fabian - you're assuming stable funding. With no demonstration of value proposition (and that will be *software*), funding will dry up eventually.

RexBrooks: @Amanda: I think so, too.

RaviSharma: Amanda: That was the assumed prerequisite, but after or concurrent to the learning about SMEs on Ontologies and their contributions, it would help to use actual tools and then visualize and graph or create reports etc on real problems that use ontology as the emphasis in finding a solution to a real application?

BillHogan: Just a general comment: I have not seen any discussion of the distinction between applied ontologists and academic ontologists (faculty who advance the theory and science of ontology). Most of the discussion seems aimed at the former. Is training of the latter as simple as doing a PhD dissertation after getting an MS degree in ontology?

BillAndersen: OW might be convinced to supply some of the templates for an engineering class

FrankOlken: Pat, most of Ontology Work's applications are classified unfortunately.

BillAndersen: Frank - right, but we can schematize the structure of those applications for teaching purposes

RexBrooks: @Amanda: My agreement was to the comment before the short one about content v. quality.

BillAndersen: Pat - many of those applications will involve proprietary or classified data and/or code

BillAndersen: I think small-to-mid-size examples (as Michael G suggested) would be most useful and that can be done without exposing sensitive stuff.

FrankOlken: Cliff Joslyn's papers can be found via DBLP http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/indices/a-tree/j/Joslyn:Cliff.html

PavithraKenjige: Peter thanks for inviting! thanks everyone!

AmandaVizedom: @Fabian Interesting point about the separation of *some* ontologists from the software. I think that's often correct. In some contexts, a corresponding distinction is made between ontology architects and ontologists in general or knowledge engineers as a complimentary speciality. That is, as either a specialization or a role within a project, some ontologists work the high-level design and architecture, including analysis of the software integration and/or human systems context. Others are focused on understanding the domain and developing ontology within that general architecture. Neither is harder/easier, IMHO, but they are quite different.

RaviSharma: Amanda: I made a comment before Bil's pasted comments, please review whenever possible.

AmandaVizedom: @Rex: got it.

JulitaBermejoAlonso: Although Semantic Web oriented, the Knowledge Web (KW) Network of Excellence project did research on different scenarios for training (professional, masters, PhD), and the required core curricula in Ontology and Semantic Web. Might be of help?

AmandaVizedom: @Ravi: Not sure I understand the question.

ArturoSanchez: @FabianNeuhaus+Rest of Editors: what I am still wondering is if the strawman captures the idea of "ontologies with a purpose" in the context of a problem-solving life-cycle ...

RaviSharma: Thanks everyone.

MariaKeet: Julita: probably a European masters programme would be a nice outcome

BillAndersen: Thanks to Barry, Fabian and of course Peter!

RexBrooks: thanks all.

AmandaVizedom: @Julita: definitely of use for the Requirements track! Consider posting links to Requirements Community Input page?

RaviSharma: Amanda look at the earlier comment for you from me on the first part of the chat when you can.

AmandaVizedom: @Ravi: Yes, I see it, but am not sure I understand it.

JulitaBermejoAlonso: @Amanda: I will do so.

JoelBender: Outstanding session, thank you!

RaviSharma: One general observation on survey, it is emphsized that respondents be practicing ontologists, hope it does not take away valuable inputs from others in the community?

PeterYim: Thanks, everyone, for the contribution ... full proceedings along with the audio recording of this session will be available after the weekend. ... Bye!

AmandaVizedom: @Ravi and all: different portions of the survey emphasize input from different elements of community or different topics.

RaviSharma: RaviSharma to Amanda: Ref. your comments to Nicola - I was also thinking of analysis of quality, completeness and extent to which the original intent of ontology specification was actually met?

MariaKeet: thanks for organising this interesting session. bye

PeterYim: - session adjourned 12:02 pm PST -

-- end of chat session --


 * ... More Questions
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 * Please mark your calendars - next session (same time on a Thursday): Thu 2010.03.04 - OntologySummit2010 virtual session-5: "draft deliverables review and alignment" - developing agenda will be at: ConferenceCall_2010_03_04

An Open Invitation
If you do find this initiative interesting or useful, we cordially invite you to join us in the "Ontology Summit 2010" virtual discourse that will be taking place in the next 3 months or so, and to the face-to-face workshop that will be held on 15 & 16-March-2010 as part of the NIST Interoperability Week in Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA.


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 * Conference Date and Time:	11-Feb-2010 10:38am ~ 12:02 pm Pacific Standard Time
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